The demands on educators in this moment are more than anyone could have ever imagined. Routines for teaching and learning, with children AND with colleagues, have completely been turned upside down. The time crunches are real and the need for growing as professionals in the name of students still remains.
So, where does professional development fit in our current reality? What do educators need most? What formats are the most flexible?
Today we hear a conversation between Michelle Flynn and Jaclyn Karabinas from Heinemann Professional Development. Michelle and Jaclyn bring a variety of perspectives on what they are hearing from teachers and schools about their needs, as well as from our authors about their observations and experiences working virtually with educators and students over the last 6 months.
Below is a transcript of this episode.
Jaclyn: All right. Hi everyone. We're glad that you're all listening today. This is Jaclyn Karabinas and I have the pleasure of working along with Heinemann Publishing and Professional Development. And I'm here with Michelle Flynn and we've had a lot of conversations in the last six months about what it means to engage in professional learning in these days.
So we thought we would record a conversation and let you all in on the conversation and we could share what we're seeing and hearing.
Michelle: Absolutely. Hi everyone, thanks Jaclyn, it's always so great to think through and talk through things with you and share ideas. And of course share all the conversations we're having with authors and customers, which have been in the time of COVID a little different.
I always say I've been working for Heinemann for 11 years for the professional development team. And prior to that, I knew Heinemann because they were a customer of mine in a very different way.
I came to Heinemann 11 years ago. I had two kids, one of whom was just going into kindergarten. So, to have the chance to talk to the people in the field as I was moving into that space on a personal level, as a parent has been amazing. And I'm so grateful for that.
And I'm so grateful for what all teachers are doing on the field, all the time, but maybe especially right now. So, it'd be great to talk about again, what we're hearing and how we might be supporting people in the field.
Jaclyn: And so what grade are your kids in now, Michelle? Your kids are probably in the thick of it.
Michelle: Yes. I have an eighth grader and 11th grader. So imagine that when I started work for Heinemann, my 11th grader was going into kindergarten, so yes, my whole worldview of education has been through that experience.
Jaclyn: And they're learning a hybrid model where they are right now, right? So they only go one day a week.
Michelle: One day a week, and then they'll have a down day and then there are two and a half days of virtual learning. So, and a full day. So, two and a half full days of virtual learning. So, that's been interesting to think through, too. Like them sitting at a computer for effectively six or seven hours, of course there'll be breaks, but you and I both have experienced in our capacities, the fatigue of that. So it'll be interesting to see how it, how it goes.
Jaclyn: And I think too, the more you put together, all of these things, you're thinking of, when I think of your context, Michelle, I think of parent, but I also think of expert in conversations with authors in schools, the customers are schools and you get to hear from so many administrators and curriculum coordinators and directors about what they're looking for and what they think teachers need.
And sometimes that lines up with what teachers need. And sometimes it really misses the mark, which I think is something that I come across in my work a lot. So my context is I'm also a parent.
I have a second grader right now who gets to go to school Monday through Thursday and learns from home on Friday because her school is really small and I'm grateful that they have everything they need. And I am similarly angered that schools down the street do not have everything they need.
So, it's a tricky spot to be, I think, to feel things at the same time to feel happiness and anger about a situation, but also I was a classroom teacher for 12 years, third and fourth grade. And I've been working with schools on my own and then with Heinemann.
So, I'm like a two hat person, right? So I get to work with Heinemann halftime, with everything from helping with the blog and the podcasts and Facebook lives, to marketing and the online PD specifically and our on demand courses.
And then the other time I'm working directly with teachers. I'm in schools, I'm helping teachers make sense of integrating their expertise and best practices with technology. And so I hear a lot of teachers say we had all of this time for PD and none of it was what I needed.
And I hear that so often and it saddens me. So, I don't know if you can talk about what are some things that you're hearing from schools right now about what they think teachers might need?
Michelle: Yeah, it's interesting because there definitely been a few things in this time that are not new, but new for me. I think the first thing that caught my attention was early on during this period, the concern around social emotional needs for kids that has been increasingly point of conversation.
Kids and teachers and parents for that matter, right, the whole world. But particularly with kids and how teachers can support them. Assessment that had come up in conversation with a couple of contacts at big districts. It was like the challenge of doing assessments when you're not in the room with kids, when you can't be looking over their shoulders or just all the, I say sort of vibrational things that happen in a classroom.
Meeting support around how to do assessments virtually. There's been some very interesting conversations around that. And of course, in light of where we are, equity issues, I mean, this was a topic that had been increasingly a part of conversations, but definitely a finer point has been made on that. Again, some very interesting conversations around that as well.
Jaclyn: And I wonder too, sorry, I'm just thinking for a minute. I wonder too about when people call and say, "We really need to do some work in equity." I always wonder if people actually know what they mean. Are they looking for a one day speaker so they can check off the box or are they really looking to address the equity issues that people know exist, we've known exist, and now they're out for the whole world to see with the way school is right now.
I just sometimes wonder if schools know what they're asking for. Or maybe they're asking for our guidance too, and from conversations with authors.
Michelle: Yes. I think all of the above. I think that what has been shaking out in these conversations is that I think some districts and this could simply be a bandwidth issue, but they want someone to keynote for an hour or, you know what I mean?
Can you kick off something? And the feedback, of course, sometimes that works, but I think there's some resistance maybe around that it takes more, we need more than that. If you're really going to address this.
But again, all over the map and of course there's been some really... And we can talk more about format, there's been some really creative thinking around how teachers can be supported in that work. Again, like one-on-one sessions, grade level sessions, you get the big group, but also how can we really narrow down?
And of course there's always been, there's been a lot of focus on cohorts. How cohorts could be supported in that work to then reverberate it out. And it just offers a deeper dive, right? A deeper examination of that work and those topics, because this actually reminds me of it's the same with social emotional, right?
The challenges that the teachers... I mean, I'm going to speak for myself right now. I realized how much I needed to do that work. And I'm a parent of two kids, right? And I think for teachers, I imagine it's the same.
And then administrators, human beings, you have to do the work before you can, I don't know how to articulate that, you know what I'm trying to say.
Jaclyn: Before you can engage others and you have to do that. Yeah, you have to do that when you're looking at social emotional learning, you have to do it when you're addressing equity, specifically racial equity in schools, you really have to do it yourself first to engage colleagues and in school communities.
I think I was just looking at a list of things that you and I had talked about. Just sort of things we're hearing. And I just want to circle back to when you talked about assessment, because something, that word has a tug and a pull for me because it's really important that we know students are learning.
But a lot of times when I hear, we're worried about assessment, how do we assess students remotely? I hear, and maybe this is just the mood I'm in right now, but I hear accountability. And when I hear accountability, I hear a distrust in the process of learning something new and letting teachers be learners along with their kids, because yes, it is important.
We do need to know that students are learning, but we're all in this very new space right now. And I'm feeling as though things like social emotional learning and connections, things like engagement, thinking about engagement looks completely different.
I think if you talk to families and caregivers at home, they will tell you what is and isn't working for remote learning where engagement is concerned. And maybe we're all in this for a year, maybe longer. But I just, for some reason, that word assessment nags at me.
Is that the top priority right now? I'm feeling like you can't assess learning if there is no learning happening, right. There's no engagement. Kids feel like their social, emotional life is a dumpster fire, then no learning is going to happen.
Michelle: I love that, how you wove that all together. One of the most powerful statements that was made to me by one of our authors around this work was what that question begs for is for schools to really assess what is important to them. What is important to you? What are you trying to assess? It is hard right now, right? Because like you said, everyone's had to make this radical shift. The whole paradigm of public school has been turned on its head, because it's about people being in a room together. And right now, I mean, Nora is fortunate. She's in a room with her peers and her teacher and the people that support and love her. And my kids have that one day a week, but it's sort of a privilege right now, I think, to have any iteration of that. But it's not everybody has that advantage.
Jaclyn: Yeah. We have the opportunity now to completely rethink this. And I think there are some days where I feel like there are so many teachers out there getting it right. There are a handful of schools that are able to move priorities to prioritize the wellness of their students and teachers, but not enough. And I really think that this is our opportunity. And so when I think about heading into this year, we can't head into this year thinking, "Okay, we're still going to achieve these standards and be able to do these assessments during the year." I feel like in so many ways, that's the wrong way to go into this year. It is not the same.
This is not business as usual.
This is a whole new world, and we have a chance to redefine how we do things. And I think that's why we're in so many conversations about really redefining and restructuring what it means to learn professionally. And thinking in terms of professional development, what makes the most sense for teachers right now? What topics do they need? What format do they need? That kind of thing.
Michelle: And I'm so glad you brought up engagement, because of course that has been like an overarching theme in a lot of the conversations I've been having and the challenges there. And I was thinking about the authors that we have been engaging and educators have been engaging with kids in this virtual environment, kids and modeling something like conferring, right? And the comment you get to learn the moves by being the learner, how there's sort of this other thing happening at play when teachers are able to be a part of what is really high quality professional development, even virtually, because they're observing those things as well. Like, oh, how is this person doing breakout rooms or asking questions or leveraging the chat or all these things.
I loved that comment and quote, but yeah, I think that in the engagement, I know that for my 13-year-old boy, that was a huge challenge last year. He just lost interest because, yeah, he was sitting up in his bedroom at his computer doing his work and it wasn't engaging.
Jaclyn: Well, and when I think about the examples you just gave, and, I mean, who said that? Was it-
Michelle: Dan Feigelson.
Jaclyn: Dan Feigelson? That's what I thought.
Michelle: Dan Feigelson, yeah.
Jaclyn: So I thought he had said that. And we've had conversations with a lot of authors about how they're learning how to keep their expertise and their best practice for wherever their area of expertise is at the center and learning what this looks like in a virtual environment. We're all doing that together. There are very few experts out there that have already been doing this virtually, but now we all are. And so we all have to sort of share that together.
And when I think about being the learner in those professional settings or professional learning and really learning the moves, like he said that, I think about it's not just that those moments when you're in professional development virtually, but it's also trying to make sure that we are offering enough schedules and formats. Some people want to dig in for a full day. Some people only have the hour after their students are done, and they're exhausted because they've been on a screen all day. But maybe they want to engage in a three or four-part webinar series. And a lot of the authors and people that I talk with are planning full days or half days or things like that. But you talk with people who are looking for speakers and seminars, and it's almost as though there are more possibilities now because there isn't travel. Right?
Michelle: Def, 100%. Yeah. So there's been, like you said, the full day, the half day. Well, to be honest, and the full day has sort of shifted for a lot of people as well, because again, the attention span and capacity, and it's somewhat dependent on topic, what someone might want to speak two to five hours versus three hours or whatever it is. Because at Heinemann PD, we would always think of a day like a school day in terms of the professional development we were offering. But now people are moving into things like a lot of requests around coaching, which has been a really wonderful kind of shift, where others are totally even doing like office hours, making available for office hours.
I would say that in a lot of instances, that's more geared toward those longer term relationships where a lot of schools are going to need you to come in and do a day. They have a day set aside. But then we have a lot of engagements where it's just ongoing multi-year, multi-day throughout the school, that really wonderful embedded kind of model that we love and I know our authors love so much, because you develop all those relationships.
So yeah. So coaching, office hours, one-on-one with grade level people, with grade level teams, with cohorts, people. It's really interesting, because I did so much of my job via email, but I don't know if this is the nature of just being home and feeling my own isolation, but I'm doing a lot more Zoom calls with customers or picking up the phone and talking through things and idea generation. And of course, we're doing that all the time with the authors that we support.
So when people ask me the question, "What do they offer?" I'm like, "What do you want? What can you support? What do you think the teachers have bandwidth for?" Because I think the authors are all really, really open to your point, thinking alongside schools in that way and providing that support.
I'm glad we talked about Dan Feigelson. We have other authors that are doing, like Matt Glover, Carl Anderson, and it's not limited to them. I know Penny Kittle's been doing that work where you're actually working with kids as well. I mean, there's a whole other layer of permissions there and that might not work for everybody, but just like if they were in the school modeling so you had teachers observing them at work, that can happen. That is happening and can happen virtually as well, which was wonderful and revelatory. And I think the people I've spoke to who are engaging that love it too as well, because they want to talk to the kids.
Jaclyn: I know, I know. Everyone misses the kids. For our authors who are still in the classroom, their expertise is growing exponentially by the day by doing this and being so involved. And for those who aren't still in the classroom, they are still constantly in contact with classrooms that they have already developed relationships with, learning alongside the teachers, coaching teachers in how to do things, how to maintain best practices. Because I would say one of the things that I see the most often when I'm working with teachers and coaching teachers is that I have to remind them that just because the technology is the delivery, it doesn't mean that it has to include tech. And I think it's so easy to think, "Oh, wait. I have tech, and so the assignment needs to be based in tech and returning things in based on tech." And you aren't necessarily needing to do that.
And I feel like I learned a great deal from Kristen Ziemke and Katie Muhtaris in this area about really focusing on the learning and not the tool. And I think that teachers are so stressed, and when you're stressed and you're tired, it's really hard to remember what you know, I think. And we know that things like conferring are really powerful practices for individualized instruction. And we know that kids reading and writing with real books and paper and pencils in their hand is really powerful for them. So remembering that these are things that we need to include and just getting some coaching on how do we organize that if I'm teaching live? Or how do I support students and independence if they're doing that asynchronously and I'm working with small groups or something like that?
So I just I feel like that's the bonus of working with our authors in various formats of professional development, because even the ones that haven't been using technology for years and years and years, they're coming into this like many teachers are with this fresh perspective of, "Here's what I know works with kids. Now, what tools will best support that?" And then really learning that through the professional development itself, being the learner.
Michelle: I love that. When we started making this shift to everything going virtual in the spring. I remember I felt like, "Wow, we're all living this in real time together." And that's what I would tell the people that were coordinating to do the PD when they were feeling that reticence like, "I don't know how this is going to work." I'm like, "We are in this with you. Literally we are in this, we know what we're learning." I mean we certainly have... And it's always changing, isn't it Jaclyn? But we certainly are developing our own best practices and recommendations and suggestions. And that's the stuff that I pass on in conversation when inquiries come in for a particular author.
I'm not only having those conversations, obviously with the teachers or the administrators or the coordinators, I'm having those conversations with the authors as well. And they're sharing what's really working or not working for them. And I think that what's been good is they've sort of... I think it's important to have, boundaries around what's tenable because ultimately I think that everybody's worried about the teachers and how they're holding up, and doing, and what is the best way we can support them and sometimes it's like to pair things back is hard, but it's also important.
That's not really... I'm generalizing, but it's really... I shouldn't be generalizing because everybody is wanting to support teachers in any way they can. But I think a lot of it is just born out of that concern, and care, and it's like there's a lot. I always say when you talk to me I'm like, "I hope you had some downtime this summer." Because I feel like everybody was in this kind of like, "Oh, how are we going to make this work, and what do we, all the things that we do?"
Jaclyn: I know but I would say any teachers I was in conversation with, who spent their summer preparing and doing PD on their own, and all the things that some teachers choose to do in the summer, are starting the year still saying, "I don't feel prepared, I've never started a year feeling so unprepared." But I hear the exact same things from teachers who felt that the best thing for them to do was to rest and recuperate. And both approaches are 100% valid. For the summer, everybody needs something different to revitalize for the new school year, but no matter what people chose to do this summer, I hear the same thing, "I don't feel prepared." Because at the heart, teachers want to connect with students, and we want them to spark a love of learning and to learn.
And while teachers feel comfortable doing that and can be amazing in the classroom, when you put them in a new setting, that takes a little bit of time. And that sort of loops me back to what we were talking about at the beginning, which is assessment. If that's the first thing we're going for, maybe taking a step back while important, in saying, "Okay, what kinds of things need to be in place? What professional learning do teachers need, so that we know when we're assessing learning, that we know kids actually got what they needed to learn, and that teachers got the professional learning they needed to teach in this different environment.
Michelle: Yeah another thing that someone said to me about this time we're in and concern about kids and the whole conversation about kids falling behind or losing ground, the most important thing is that we just need to work to keep kids curious. And I was going to say that early on, something that I kind of thought I might be hearing more from people but wasn't, but I think is inquiry. I thought I might hear a little bit more about inquiry in terms of requests, because there's an opportunity maybe for a little independence around that, the things that could be happening, even if you can't go outside, that they could engage with kids on. But it hasn't really caught fire the way that I thought it would. But anyway, that just ties into that. I loved that there was such a value statement. And again, let me say, as a mother, it definitely resonated for me in that way too.
Jaclyn: It's hard because if you have, if there are things that you have in place, if there are certain routines and structures that you have in place in your classroom already, moving to remote, some of those pieces won't be hard, but if you don't have strong community, building, space and time for your students in the physical classroom, all of a sudden doing that remotely, is not going to be seamless. And the same thing goes for inquiry. There's so much with inquiry that has to be designed collaboratively among students. And so knowing how to do that in person is hard enough, then you move it online and it's challenging too. And I wouldn't say that doesn't mean don't do it.
I'm with you, Michelle. I was surprised too. I feel like this is the time for inquiry. I mean, a lot of schools have prioritized their standards and they're calling them Power Standards, or Priority Standards and what an opportunity for inquiry. And I know too that on the parents' side, where it can be challenging, if families and caregivers are supporting inquiry at home it can often land a lot on them if not structured properly for the collaboration and the gradual release to independence. So that could be an area where people could really use some professional development time as well.
Jaclyn: I've been thinking about leadership. I think that just looking at the list of things that we put together, of what we're seeing and hearing, I think that, I mean, it's hard to be anyone in education right now. And I really hope that we can have school leaders who are listening to teachers and what they need, and based on what they're seeing from their own experiences and their students, the people who are actually doing it, we really have to be listening to teachers.
I know that can be hard in really large districts, but it's got to be a priority because blanket professional development to say, we're checking the box that everyone's ready for X thing in remote learning, is not going to work. It's not going to work at all because teachers are individuals, their students are individuals. And that's where coaching comes in. I think the coaching is going to be really key for a lot of teachers. And I hope that leaders can also think about priorities and think alongside teachers. I've heard of teachers being observed already in their remote classrooms. And how stressful is that? I mean, are you observing to support or are you observing... I mean, I don't know. I really wonder about that. I don't know. Just some thoughts in my mind about, what leaders can do, school leaders can do in this time.
Michelle: It makes me think too about, and I'm not sure I haven't seen any information on this, how many teachers although the kids are virtual, where teachers are in a building together. I know I have heard a lot of feedback in that where teachers were just so happy to be in their classrooms, even though it's so different, even though in some instance they're teaching virtually from their own classroom. Hopefully that offers a chance for teachers to tap their community at least, their peers together, their colleagues for conversation and support and thinking. And again, I don't know what that looks like, what the statistics on that are. I kind of assume that a lot of teachers are working in the buildings. It's a little chance to then transition. Go ahead.
Jaclyn: No, no, I agree, and I feel like every time I think I've heard every single model in combination possible, I hear another one. And I think that we just have to name that and accept that everyone is doing something different to the best of their ability. And I don't know, I think it is important to think about teacher isolation in any of the models, because teaching is already kind of an isolating job and this really does not help. Especially if you're a teacher that just really relies on that community to think together and to design learning. At my daughter's school, they're remote every Friday so that the teachers can work together.
And when schools are prioritizing that somehow in whatever the model is, that is going to create more success in the things that lead to learning so that you can maybe focus on assessment at some point. It's a domino effect, everything connects to the other.
Michelle: And I think that this is where you're thinking Jaclyn, around how leadership and administrators, if they're really listening to what teachers need, this is all a part of that perfect storm. Like if teachers have time to be planning without kids in the building, if there's conversations happening, if administrators are listening to those conversations and hearing the need, and then how, I mean, I'm just going to say, that's what we do. And we provide the professional development where those teachers can be together and be in conversation and be listening from these experts in their areas, subject matter experts.
I've received so much amazing feedback from teachers over the course of these last few months where they just are so appreciative of Gallagher said something really funny. He's said he currently feels like he's confetti brain, where everything is popping around, nothing is landing, everything is feeling sort of scattered. I think everybody's feeling that way. But I think having a day of professional development with someone that you can learn from and you admire and respect and all these things and is doing this important work it just gives people an opportunity to be grounded.ust having, it's like you can be immersed in something, because it's like, Kelly G
Jaclyn: Yeah, no, I just remembered someone in the spring tweeted that when they had a one day virtual workshop with Maggie Roberts and Kate Roberts and felt like, they said, "This is the first day since shut down that I've felt like my professional self." And how a full day of virtual professional development isn't for everyone, but for some teachers out there just immersing yourself in that full day where you can be reminded of the job that you know and love for a whole day, it's so valuable.
Michelle: Totally. Yeah, no, I know there've been all kinds of feedback like that that's just been so ... And of course I mean, a little bit selfishly gratifying too because I think we're all feeling that isolation as well. There was this moment in the spring where I realized, "Wow, my job has totally changed." And how we all had to catch up so to know and to get that kind of feedback from teachers and know that it's something that's benefiting them and not just another thing that they have to do that's causing stress that feels really good too.
Those were those moments of like, "Thank God." I think sometimes teachers can come into these things and it can feel distressed about being out of your classroom right now like, "Oh my God, I can't be out of the classroom right now." But at least if they are to know that they can be in the moment and they're getting something out of it and it's not just adding one more thing to they're already overwhelmed lives.
Jaclyn: I know and I think that always remembering that the authors who are in the classroom or authors who are full time consultants right now who have spent plenty of time in classrooms to be reminded that they're learning alongside with us and they can be think partners along with teachers. I think of the conversation I had with Cornelius Minor a few weeks ago where he said, "Right now, I'm focusing on my online pedagogy. What does it mean? What is school? What does that even mean? This is what I'm learning. This is what I'm developing. This is the thinking that I'm having with my colleagues right now." And that's what everyone's trying to do. And I wouldn't even say trying, I would say everyone is doing it.
Authors are having conversations with each other, with schools. If they're working with students they're really just rethinking what it means to teach and learn alongside with us. And so, all the conversations that we get to have when you put all these pieces together it allows us to match people up with the right kind of PD that will fit what they need.
Michelle: That's well said.
Jaclyn: Something I was thinking of, as we wrap up this conversation just acknowledging a few things. I mean, we know that there are so many settings out there right now where school hasn't even begun yet because the things that needed to be done to make sure that all students can access education are not done. And so, we really just want to acknowledge that in many places schools are still trying to figure out how kids have access to a device.
Are they going to be in a physical space? Who gets to be there and when and why? Who pays for what? I mean, there are so many places out there that can't even get to the instruction part yet and we see you too. And I just wanted to acknowledge that because when you're a teacher that feels like you can't even get started with teaching and learning alongside your students because of all of the systems that are failing you right now that's an impossible place to be. And so we see you, we just want to acknowledge that for sure.
Michelle: Emphatically shaking my head. Thank you so much for saying that. And again Jaclyn, this has been a real experience of my checking my own assumptions around things because where I live and my experience even here locally when this all first started my husband and I were out for a walk and we ran into a fourth grade teacher at the elementary school my kids went to and I said, "How are you?" She's like, I'm so worried about some of the kids that I just simply haven't heard from. It's the forefront of every teacher's mind and of course to your point, those people that just it's not even an option right now. Yeah.
Jaclyn: It's cities but it's rural areas too. I feel like because you and I both live, we live in New Hampshire so anyone I've talked to in rural areas is they're coming across their own set of struggles to get teaching and learning happening for their school communities. And then, a lot of our authors live in New York City and I feel like those conversations are always really valuable to me as I'm sure they are to you Michelle. Because it's just always being aware how different everyone's situations are not just in model but in what their communities are like. And that can be anything from communities that are having a hard time getting things set up and equitable for all of their students, all the way to the communities who where families and parents are super engaged with schools and are absolutely an important part of this conversation.
Remote learning depends on the support of families and caregivers but I hear stories of places where decisions were made and families, parents didn't agree with it and things had been overturned within days. And so, it's so just complicated.
Michelle: So complicated.
Jaclyn: So complicated. It's a lot. The other thing that we didn't get to talk about a lot, maybe we can have another conversation again soon with some educators who are deep in remote learning or hybrid instruction right now is how educators are still trying to pursue racial equity in schools knowing that there is a lot to address right now but not letting it be pushed to the wayside. I know that I think of all the educators this summer that participated in IREL and the Institute for Racial Equity and Literacy with Tricia Ebarvia and Sonia Cherry-Paul. And there was so much learning that happened there over those two weeks with over 500 people between the two sessions. And I think a really valuable conversation to come back to is how do we still keep that as a priority when schools are saying, "Not right now, we have X to deal with. Not right now, we have this to deal with." And yeah a conversation for another time I think.
Michelle: Definitely. Definitely. I know. It's so great to catch up and talk about all of these things and as usual we just scratch the surface. But yeah, I would love to continue the conversation. I love the idea of bringing educators in. You and I both have relationships with people in the field. Yeah I've seen a lot of equity plans come into my inbox from schools and districts wanting to engage in that way. It's like all the thinking was there but now it's like the execution even in these times. And I almost feel like the kids are so ready for that work. The kids are so ready. Yeah.
Jaclyn: They absolutely are. They were ready yesterday for sure. Great. All right. Well thanks
Michelle. It's fun talking to you today.
Michelle: You too Jacqueline. Thank you so much for always like I said conversation, support. I really appreciate you and I thank you to all the teachers out there right now.
Jaclyn: We love you.
Michelle: Yes, totally. Thank you.
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