If you've been lucky enough to have a mentor in your life, you know the value of the guidance they can provide you. But what about a femtor?

Today on the podcast we’re hearing from Irene Castillón, a Heinemann Fellowship alum, and currently serving as an assistant principal in San Jose, California. During her time as a Heinemann Fellow, Irene explored topics of guiding professional relationships, alumni peer groups, and how to best support first generation college students.

Since then, Irene’s scope of focus has expanded to focus in on the deep value of mentorship between women, what she calls “femtorship.”

Today she is joined by Dr. Patricia López of Fresno State University, and Angela Rascon, a current student at Saint Mary’s College of California.

Below is a transcript of this episode. 

Irene: All right, let's go ahead and get started. So first, I've been looking to this for a long time, because I get to share space with two powerful mujeres, and it's kind of, to me, a connect the dot moment. So Dr. López is one of my femtors, I had her as a professor at San Jose State University, and she really has helped me not only get through grad school, but continues to help me navigate different situations. And she's actually the one who told me about the Heinemann Fellowship, that I ended up applying to, and getting selected to, that led me to do action research project, that led me to work with Angela in my project for Heinemann.

So it's really great to be able to connect the dots in this space, and think about really what femtorship looks like, as we think about our own connected relationships, and how we reflect and share that with the world. So, excited to have you both here, and thank you so much for your time, which I know is so, so limited. So thank you for taking the time to be here.

So Dr. López, my first question, so you have organized events, and webinars through your work with Enseñamos en el Valle Central, and even though I'm not in the Central Valley, I've really had a chance to attend webinars, yay, thank you, Zoom. And in them, you've mentioned the word femtorship, and not mentorship. So I'm wondering if you could speak a little to why femtorship, why use that word when thinking about relationships in advising and guiding?

Dr. López: Yeah, thank you for that question, Irene, you actually made me go back and really think about, sometimes there are things that just feel so instinctual in the work that we do, and when we get asked those questions, it's an opportunity to just kind of explain and... So just really quickly, the Enseñamos en el Valle Central, it's a university initiative, it's a Hispanic-serving institution, grant, HSI grant, initiative, to cultivate future educators, future Latinx educators, future bilingual educators. And we know that of that community, a lot of them are more likely to identify as female. And so in doing our work, and creating just opportunity structures, mentoring is a really important opportunity structure that is across, I mean, even when you become a professional. And so I think that issue of continuing to say mentorship in a space that is not only just comprised overwhelmingly of females, but also involves men, males, queer males, but also feminists, and feminist aspiring kind of epistemologies.

And so a lot that we do is really grounded in Chicana feminists, like Black feminists kinds of ways of thinking, and knowing, and navigating these systems. One of my team members was like, "We really should think about using the concept of femtor." And I just think that it really encapsulates what's really happening, and the fact that in these professions, we are also highly gendered, we're racialized, and we're definitely very gendered individuals, and so we have to acknowledge that. So long-winded, Irene, but that's really a little bit of what brings that term, and I'm glad that it was something that resonated for you.

Irene: Yeah, and thank you for really bringing us back to the importance of our context, and the importance, and the power of words in disrupting and creating change, so thank you for that. So my other question is for both you, Dr. López, and Angela, thinking about femtorship in your life, What does mentorship mean to you? And then, what experiences did you have with femtorship growing up / in schooling?

Angela: So, thank you, Dr. López for providing us with that context of what femtorship means, because truthfully, I didn't really hear about this concept until early today, so now having it in context I'm like, "Oh, okay, I was right on it with what I was thinking." So I was thinking more of inspiration, and so that's what femtorship means to me, that's inspiration. And my experience with mentorship growing up and in schooling was, I don't really think I ever had a mentor, or someone who I thought of as a mentor, or even in education, I never really saw a teacher like me.

So I grew up in Eastside, San Jose. I went to school in Eastside, San Jose, yet the demographic was very much Latino, Vietnamese, but the teachers who were serving us did not identify with either, or. It wasn't until I was 14, and a Mexican-American history class being taught by a Mexican-American teacher, Ms. Castillón, it wasn't until then where I saw myself reflected, and those experiences being embodied by someone. She came from a similar socio-economic background, similar household languages, we shared languages, and culture in common. And so it didn't really appear in schooling until I was in high school.

Dr. López: Yeah, I can completely relate to that, Angela. I grew up in the Central Valley, sometimes it's just wild to think that I'm back here doing this work, essentially where I grew up. And I also didn't, I grew up in a predominantly Latino neighborhood and community, went to school overwhelmingly of people from mainly Mexican communities, we say Latino, but it was very much, and continues to very much be like an overwhelmingly Mexican community. And so, I think back, and later in graduate school, really having an analysis and tools to think about that, and you're probably spending just as much, if not more, of your time in that schooling context than you are, even sometimes with your parents if they work, and so not having that connection, not having those individuals, so I definitely did not have mentors within the schooling context.

I was very involved with the local community center, and there, I did find mentors. It was overwhelmingly young people who were from the community. I don't know that I knew that they were mentoring me, but they were surely calling my parents if I popped off. So there was some parenting, this concept of a village was very much alive in my growing up years, so definitely not in the schooling context, but within other... And I deem those spaces as learning spaces. Those are places where we are being educated, where we are learning, and fundamental. For me, that was a major space where I learned, and became who I am. Yeah, so I would say more community-based mentorship, even in more... Yeah, just growing up, and seeing that, and feeling that, and somehow that just kind of became natural for me too, to be that person with other people, my family, community.

Irene: Yeah, thank you both for sharing, and thinking about learning spaces in general. Whether that's in a school building, whether that is at a community center. And really also highlighting the importance of seeing ourselves reflected in others. One time I texted Angela about something Dr. López did for me actually, and then... Angela, you want to share what you said in my text?

Angela: Yes, so I said, "It seems like Dr. López is like who you are to me." So I don't know if that makes sense, but the relationship that me and Ms. Castillón have is like the relationship that I see Ms. Castillón and Dr. López having.

Irene: Yeah, really. And that representation. And for me, it was my second year of grad school at San Jose State where I really felt that. I grew up in schools where it was predominantly black and brown students, but didn't see that in the educators and the different learning spaces that I was a part of so thank you for that. So yes, Dr. López is my Ms. Castillón, so thank you for that.

All right. Dr. López, I have a question, and you kind of touched about this in the last question, but I know that you mentioned thinking about being that person for others. And I know that you're extremely busy, but yet you take the time to advise and guide students. So, wondering why make that time, and what impact do you hope to have in that role?

Dr. López: Man, to me, I feel a sense of obligation. I'll just be honest, I really do feel this. Whether it was directly or indirectly, I know that things that people before me really created the opportunity for me. I mean, think about it, I'm this kid who grew up on the north side, in the bario of my small hometown. I graduated continuation high school. It wasn't like I was this cream of the crop kind of student, but I think that there were a lot of people who, regardless of those structural barriers before me, they just kept pulling me and pulling me. I feel like it's an honoring of what has been done for me, and I'm sure that they didn't have time either.

I'm always very open with individuals who come into my journey who share, because I'm also not a good mentor at certain things, right? So I'm also very forthcoming about that. I'm your go-to person for these things, and there are things that I'm just not, and I'm okay with that, right? I'm also very open to who I am, and that's why I'm a firm believer on people also telling individuals who I have an opportunity to mentor to have multiple mentors.

I feel like in being open with who I am, things that I'm just not strong in, so I'm always big on saying, "Man, this is not my strength." That also gives mentees, colleagues, the opportunity to know I'm probably not the go-to person on that. So then when I'm in these relationships, and I see them as relationships, individuals like Irene, you're literally calling me because, this is my go-to. I know that in this situation, this person will really guide me in this. I will never mislead someone. I care enough about people to say "Man, don't let me mislead you, because I don't know that world or that situation, but I'm going to find you someone."

It's the time to also say, "Hey, let's put you with this individual, because this individual is going to get you where you need to go." I just feel like it's so collective and in that manner and building that relationship, it doesn't feel like it takes up time. It doesn't. In fact, I wish I had more time and I feel like it's the same, like when your sibling or one of your primas calls you, you don't feel like, oh my God, I don't have time, you just do it. It just feels that way.

That's kind of how I feel about that, Irene. In terms of, I just don't see it as having to make time or carving out time. It's just the relationship is there and the relationship is open. We know each other. Irene is like, I'm not going to call it a certain time, I know she's having an event. We're in each other's world enough to just kind of know that too.

Irene: Thank you for sharing, hitting on this familia. That relational aspect of familia you mentioned care, and cariño, and love. Which you definitely infuse. When we have conversations and knowing that what you say, and knowing that, what I say to Angela really comes from this deep place of heart, soul and roots, if that makes sense in terms of where we're going. Angela, what are your thoughts on that?

Angela: Full circle kind of thing. That's exactly what we're thinking. The primas part just literally saying, because I'm the first in my family to be in higher education. Just completely merit based. So I've had cousins who are scouted through sports or through other avenues where they have someone on campus who is advocating for them, who is like, "I'm on team, like here on camp, on campus." But I'm the first one to be on merit based scholarships. So for me, it's like navigating this space where I don't really have a coach advocating for me here or I don't have , I'm also first generation students. It didn't, there's only limited resources for first gen students. I didn't make the cut. I don't have anyone here on campus, yet my prima might call and they'll be like, "Hey, I have an essay due at 11:59."

I'm like, "girl, it's 10:00. Like, why would you barely like, it's 10!" I'm like just send it, just send it. And even if it's grammar check or like correcting MLA or if it's APA, what does that mean, figuring it out with them? And we're the same age, them and I we're the same age, only differences. I came to a four year and they're like "well, she went to a four year, so I'm going to reach out." And I'm like, okay, well let's figure it out together. Some of them have been older too. Okay, well this is a grammar thing. Or this is a citation issue. Whatever it is, it's the aspect of like figuring it out together. I don't think I consider myself like a mentor, we were talking about this earlier, but it's like a friend who knows or someone who's willing to put in that time. I think time is a very big theme.

Irene: Yes! And figuring it out together. I think before I had these relationships of community. Specifically with other women of color, I felt I was so alone. It was very individual, and so being in this space just reminds me of the importance of the collective. SND how that really has roots. In our, like our indigenous roots. And our ancestors and how really "femstorship" is also a way of bringing that back. And honoring that as really a sacred space. Angela, you spoke a little bit about your primas. And how you kind of see yourself as a femtor to them. I'm wondering, as you think about femtorship, what is the most important characteristic of a femtor in your opinion?

Angela: Trust and continuity. These two things are, not built over one or two days it's years. I think the most like trust. I think back to senior year of high school, when our relationship started, I was a freshman in high school, but then I think it was just, "hi, how are you? Good. How are you?" Then senior you're like, okay, college applications are starting. We're going to do this. It was your dedication towards our educational success. There were some days where we were on campus from 4:00 PM to 9:00 PM because this deadline was going to close. And you wanted us to submit these applications. And we just found out about the scholarship this morning. That was your time. We were building trust during those times.

The most clear, the clearest memory I have is when senior year stress, because I imagined tuition, It's going to be, it's going to be X amount. But then seeing the bill like right in front of me, I was like, "what is this? Like, this is thousands and thousands of dollars that I don't have." And so I would lose sleep. I think my mom would hear me moving around in bed and I just would lose my appetite. I was losing hair because of how stressed I was. I worked so hard for four years. And now this college dream is not in my hands, it's not attainable. And then I think my mom called you, I don't know how it worked out. She might have gone into the office, but you pulled me aside and you were like, "Trust me." Literally we were outside of one of the portables and you're like, "You just have to trust me. It's going to be fine." Because I didn't know how this institution worked and you did. And you literally just saying like, "Trust me," that's when we started building our... I was like, "Okay, like, this is going to be my person." And even to date, whether it's good news or bad news, you're the second person I want to talk to. Just yesterday I sent you a text I was like, "I got the scholarship." So it was that trust, but then it's the continuity that keeps it going. So that didn't just end when I was a senior in high school. Now I'm a senior in college and we're doing grad school applications. So it's a continuous relationship that we've been able to build.

Irene: Yes. Grad school applications. We're going to handle that situation. Yes, no, and thank you for again trusting me. And really thinking about also the family part and your mom are reaching out to me. And so I think it's also getting back to what Dr. López was saying of really of the familial relationship. And also Dr. López, you said your mentors called your parents, and so having almost a relationship beyond the student, beyond the individual and with their community. Again, so that struggle is not just on one person, but really looking at it as like, "All right. How could we like as a community, right, figure out the situation to get through what we got to get through." Super excited for you Angela and so proud of you.

But Dr. López, so you mentioned a little bit about your own identity and your own background. I'm wondering, how has your identity and positionality impacted your role as a femtor and the way that you advise and guide your students?

Dr. López: I think probably one of, because I do feel like a lot of times we come into each other's journey in some of those situations, like when I can let just explain. Like here you are feeling overwhelmed, you're feeling vulnerable, you're juggling a lot. And so I see that a lot in some of the people who I get to mentor. And so sometimes I'll use myself in a joking way and saying, I think I even alluded to it earlier where I just say, "Look, if someone like me can get this far and you have like 10 times more talent and brilliance than I did at that stage, you got this." And sometimes it's humanizing yourself to someone who can easily be looking up to you. So I'm very conscious of that sometimes in my role and even in your role, we can quickly lose sight that other individuals are looking up to us and we have to humanize ourselves.

I share my journey. I share the things that and people who were really instrumental in helping me to get through just like structural obstacles. And I do feel that that's also part of who we are as you invoke just our indigenous, our ways of knowing and ways of being and that humility. And so I talk about, it's not just identity in the sense of nationality or those aspects, but it's about what we're grounded in. And what is it that's at our core. And I can get of feisty sometimes, but overwhelmingly when it comes to like... I do put humility and a little bit of humor in there too.

And just sharing my journey and sharing things that aren't always obvious. So a lot of times, individuals who become mentees to can really, again, lose sight and think that they're not going to get through it and to share and be open in saying like, "I've been there." The same way like Angela, you explained. That's so important and to let them know, remind them. Like I grew up working class. I had these similar things and then I didn't have certain things. Like I have a number of undocumented students and also saying like, "That is not my journey."

That is not an obstacle, but we can and work through that obstacle. It is not the all encompassing, your whole future is because of that. When I think about identity and positionality, I see it more, or just as much about what grounds us. And all the things, Irene, that you've already been naming in putting out there I think are so much a part of that.

Irene: Yeah. Thank you. I feel like that connects to always grounding us in our "why". Why we do what we do, what is it that leads us to take time, like both of you said, and where that originates from. So that holding onto our "why" is really important. So thank you for sharing that.

So Angela, you're going to be an educator. So everyone Angela is applying to grad school programs in different schools of education to become a teacher, which is amazing. And I'm so excited for her. So as you think about your students, what lessons do you hope that your students will learn from you?

Angela: So the most important one that I want them to learn is I want to teach ethnic studies, which I know if you all know good news, it's now going to be implemented in K-12. So I'm like, "Whoo, just in time." But that's where I want to be. I think history, I love history. It's really fun, especially when you're being taught your own history and you're seeing your stories reflected. It's her story. It's not just history. So I love that. I think it's great. I don't know. I like when students are able to connect, but with that Irene, I want students to know themselves. To know their history, to be comfortable in their identity, whatever that may be and their backgrounds and come into higher education with that knowledge of knowing themselves, like a secure identity, to be confident that some of these identities that they hold are not a deficit, but they're an asset to the communities that they're coming into.

For me, I came in with a very strong identity of self and like nationality, and I already knew race and ethnicity because those classes were available to me in high school. And I see how hard it is for certain students to be in spaces where not everyone is necessarily rooting. I don't say rooting for you, but you're coming to higher education where people from all over the world are. We're not in our little bubble for us it was like East Side San Jose, and like what that community looked like to coming to a private, small Catholic school with people coming from all over the world. One of the strongest things that I came in with, I know I'm Mexican-American, I know I'm first generation, I know I'm Latina, I know I'm a woman.

And this is what I knew and I was confident in. And so when I was in these classes, I'm like, "I'm in this ethnic studies class." And for the first time, the person next to me is learning the difference between race and ethnicity and nationality. But it's like, "I already know this and I already know who I am." And so when you're reading a lot of these things that you're exposed to, you're like, "I can look at this through a different lens." I can use a feminist lens to view this, or I can look at this from a different angle.

And it's not the ethnic studies classes necessarily that there's that identity that you need, but it's in other courses where you're discussing Western literature. And it's like, "Okay, what does that mean to me as in my identity?" It's like, "How do I connect to this? Can I connect to this?" And like, "How do those people's opinions, how are they coming at me with my identity? Like, what does that mean?" So just being secure and confident in who they are and knowing their history. Ethnic studies is such a broad thing. And I want them to, whatever their background is, bring that culturally competent education into the classroom so that when they're leaving it, they're like, "I know who I am. I know what these themes are and I can be critical of what I'm reading and what is being fed to me.

Irene: Yes. And I'm so excited for your students to learn that, right? And I find myself in our conversations, Angela, as you're taking these ethnic studies courses, right, I've learned so many lessons from you in terms of what it means to be more just, more inclusive, right, being really mindful right, of different aspects of my life, right, where I need to really think critically about what it means to decolonize certain parts of my life, right? And you bring that to me, and so I'm so excited for your students to have that and for your knowledge to be shared with your classmates in your teacher ed program and, of course, your students. Dr. López, what about you? What lessons do you hope that your students learn from you?

Dr. López: Man, I think Angela really captured a lot of it. For me, there's definitely a difference or also coming out of just those opportunities to know the self, right? Those were very important things that happened for me early on through community, right, through being a part of a community center. And those things were happening outside of formal schooling context. And they were happening in our home, right? We also don't regard the pedagogies of the home as an education, right? And so for me, I'm really big on saying those things openly with folks that I get to mentor because, or being a femtor to somebody, because it's just that's important, too, right, and those things are really important, and to deconstruct those things as well, right? There are things that are happy in community and homes.

I'm in teacher education and so preparing future teachers to really think about that even before they hit the classroom, right? What do you know about yourself? What do you know about others? What do you know about the young people you're going to educate? What do you really know? And so there is, you reference decolonial, it's also decolonizing of the self and I think that that is big. Supporting people to feel comfortable and not stigmatized by that practice, right, and those are things that get reinforced. To Angela's point, those things should always simply be reinforced within the formal schooling context. Within courses that hold the label, right, a label of ethnic studies, Latino studies, all of those, but within the whole climate and culture of schooling because for me, a lot of it is to hold those epistemologies, those ways of knowing.

And so I think for me, that's a biggie is for my femtees overwhelmingly to just know that. The institution, going into a career, in going back into an institution that is probably already kind of did a job on self-esteem, on their sense of self. So I want them to know that, that that is just as important as knowing all the content, knowing all of the different facts and things like that, that those things are really important. And I think how Angela articulated within how she envisions it, right? 'Cause it's not, right, Angela, it's not just like, let's go learn all the timelines and all of the heroes and the figures and the people. It's about who are you as well, right? It's just as much about the self as it is about all of these other, yeah, just these other things that get covered and that we're kind of held to know or measured on how much we know and don't know so ...

And the advice is to also carry that on which I completely can see in your relationship. I see it. It's just it's vibrant. It's so obvious and it's just amazing to me how it is not something ... It's still rare, it's still rare to be in community with people, let alone, right, for a femtor or femtee to really feel like you can be vulnerable and just be reminded that loving yourself is more important than any of these other endeavors. And those endeavors will only reflect, right, how you do and how you navigate all these systems. It's going to come back to that important thing.

And so I want these, my femtees, to do that with others, right. Remind them like, man, love yourself, right? That is so important. I don't care, I will never care if Angela knows or doesn't know every fact about Mexican American history or herstory, right? If who she is and loving herself isn't there, that's what's going to be infectious to her students, right? That's what, that right there, that's what those young people are going to just latch on because they're going to see you as someone who loves yourself and then it's also exploring these really cool things, right, so yeah.

I think the issue of cariño, of love, self-love, Irene, really resonates with me and how you've brought us through this conversation. And I think that's important to lift that up.

Irene: Yeah, and especially as we think about the spaces and sometimes cariño and love aren't necessarily welcomed in those spaces, right? And I think that lifting that up here is so powerful. And so I just really want to thank you for helping me to love myself and share of myself with others through the femtorship that we have and the multi-generational impact, right, that it won't stay here, that we're going to keep it going. And that to me gives me so much hope because I know that that is grounded in love, right? So thank you, thank you for sharing your thoughts. So appreciative of you two, and thank you. Las quiero.

Irene Castillón is the assistant principal and history teacher at Cristo Rey San Jose Jesuit High School in San Jose, CA, where she seeks to build structures and programs that affirm students by fostering teaching and learning that is culturally competent and empowering. Irene was also the recipient of the Phyllis Henry Lindstrom Educational Leadership Award and in 2016 and was recognized by the U.S. Department of Education as part of the #LatinosTeach campaign. With her leadership and teaching largely influenced by her own experiences, Irene entered education to advocate for equity, tolerance and justice.