Today on the podcast, we're continuing the conversation between Dr. Edmund Adjapong and his mentor, Dr. Chris Emdin. Edmund’s new book, Teach Like an MC: Hip-Hop Pedagogy in the K-12 Classroom is a research-based framework built on the foundation of culturally-responsive pedagogy that infuses hip-hop culture into content lessons for deeper student engagement.
Chris is the creator of the HipHopEd social media movement. HipHopEd is a multi-platform and cross-curricular initiative with the goal of educating stakeholders in education and related fields about the intersection of hip-hop and education.
Edmund and Chris start this part of the conversation talking about the work of Dr. Maxine Greene, a scholar and thinker who has had a deep influence on both authors. In 2023, Dr. Emdin became the Maxine Greene Chair for Distinguished Contributors to Education.
Transcript
Edmund Adjapong:
The core of this book is about, how do we get young people to know that they have the keys, the tools to enact their own liberation?
Brett:
That's Dr. Edmund Adjapong speaking about his new book, Teach Like an MC: Hip-Hop Pedagogy in the K-12 Classroom. His work is a research-based framework built on the foundation of culturally-responsive pedagogy that infuses hip-hop culture into content lessons for deeper student engagement. I'm Brett from Heinemann. Today on the podcast, we're continuing the conversation between Dr. Adjapong and his mentor, Dr. Chris Emdin. Chris is the creator of the HipHopEd social media movement. HipHopEd is a multi-platform and cross-curricular initiative with the goal of educating stakeholders in education and related fields about the intersection of hip-hop and education.
Edmund and Chris start this part of the conversation talking about the work of Dr. Maxine Greene, a scholar and thinker who has had a deep influence on both authors. In 2023, Dr. Emdin became the Maxine Greene Chair for Distinguished Contributors to Education. Chris is also the professor of science and education at Teachers College University. Edmund Adjapong is the director of Hip-Hop Culture, Equity, and Excellence Academy, and an associate professor in the Educational Studies Department at Seton Hall University. He's also a former middle school science teacher in New York City Public Schools. He's also the founding editor of the Journal of Hip-Hop Education and the editor of the HipHopEd compilation book series. Here now is part two of our conversation with Edmund and Chris.
Chris:
I love that in this book and in your work and your thinking generally, you reference Maxine Greene, who's one of my favorite scholars and thinkers. Shameless plug, I hold the Maxine Greene Chair for Distinguished Contributions to Education, and she was just one of those people that seemed to really get this idea that possibility, hope, wonder, imagination, all wrapped under this concept of white awakeness is what we need to be able to revive and reimagine education. You reference her often. You talk about white awakeness, and you talk about imagination in this work in text. Talk about how you reference that in this text, and then talk about the ways that that philosophy of white awakeness and radical imagination and possibility matters to you as a scholar and a thinker as you produce work like this.
Edmund:
Yeah, I mean, when we talk about the status quo of education, it's important to realize that school ... I talk a lot about the history of schooling and how education hasn't really supported Black and historically-marginalized groups, and it really requires a different type of approach or a different type of pedagogy, a different intention when educators walk into this classroom around, how are we going to really be successful around ... I'm not even talking about getting kids to pass a test. Right? What I really am talking about is, how do we get our young people to find a connection to the things that we want them to learn?
As a science educator, when I first became a teacher, I was like, "I want all my kids to be scientists. I love science. I love this content and subject area." When I became a teacher, I quickly realized that my kids did not like science. So my work was to, "How do I entice them? How do I excite them? How do I wake up their imagination to feel a semblance of what I feel around the content?" Every kid's not going to go off and become an Einstein. I know that, and I'm okay with that. But what I want my students to walk out the classroom, and I think every teacher should want their students to walk out, every content and subject area, is, if you wanted to pursue this as a career, as a field, as a dream, do you feel comfortable and confident in doing that?
So in the work, I talk a lot about teacher identity building, but I talk about, how can teachers support students in developing their identities in relationship to content? Right? So we take on science, for example. How do we support young people in developing a science identity? I feel comfortable and confident that if I were to explore and engage in science spaces, that I will feel comfortable. You know? I can take on a science elective if I so chose. I can pursue a science career if I so chose. But it requires teachers to think differently, right, to be more imaginative in how we're approaching-
Chris:
A decolonization of the imagination.
Edmund:
Yeah.
Chris:
Right? The recognition that we all have in imagination, but our imaginations have collectively been colonized. When I say colonized, not in a sort of social, political context, like colonized in the sense of there are these things that have been put in place that stops you from dreaming about what could be.
Edmund:
Right.
Chris:
The idea that my imagination can be released, this ... Maxine's book was called Releasing the Imagination.
Edmund:
Yep. Yep.
Chris:
My imagination can be released from these confines to allow young folks to be able to dream. I think it's magical, man.
Edmund:
It's such a privilege to be able to dream.
Chris:
Yeah.
Edmund:
We all deserve that privilege to dream in relationship to our content, our aspirations, right, and then ultimately, as well, is we have to be imaginative in regards to what the content areas can do in the world. We talk about knowledge of self. It's all about liberation. The core of this book is about, how do we get young people to know that they have the keys, the tools to enact their own liberation? It's not our responsibility as educators. We can't free anybody. We have to support young people in finding the right mechanisms and tools so they can free themselves, so-
Chris:
This is so good. This is so good. So let's stay here for a little bit.
Edmund:
Yeah.
Chris:
So connecting this idea of releasing the imagination, right, helping the teachers to be able to dream beyond so they can teach in ways that are not the ways it's been taught, to help young folks to release the imagination so they can aspire to be more. And so you have this book, this text, this philosophy that's about moving beyond the boundaries of what is possible. But then, you connected that to knowledge of self.
Edmund:
Yeah.
Chris:
I don't want you to gloss over that, because I think it's powerful. Can you talk about the ways that you've written about, that you're thinking about how knowledge of self actually becomes the conduit through which you can release your imagination?
Edmund:
Yeah. Wow.
Chris:
Yeah. Talk about that relationship.
Edmund:
Yeah. I mean, when we think about knowledge of self, knowledge of self is centered around who we are, who want to be, right, within and outside of the system that oppresses us. Right? So number one, how do we live and exist in a system that doesn't oppress us? But the reality is that we live within systems that oppress us. Right?
Chris:
Mm-hmm.
Edmund:
So how do we work towards interrogating and critiquing spaces, and systems, and structures? Right? In the classroom, it looks like, how do we get our students to increase their awareness around ... That's the first piece. Right? How do we get young people to know that there are systems in [inaudible 00:07:03]?
Chris:
That there's more. Yeah.
Edmund:
Yeah. That there are systems put up-
Chris:
Particularly in a world that says you can't even use the word oppress.
Edmund:
Yeah, are not-
Chris:
Right?
Edmund:
Yeah.
Chris:
There are reasons why we can't use the word oppress, because then, if you can't use a word that describes your conditions-
Edmund:
Right. How are you?
Chris:
... then, you're just stuck within those conditions. I just love the idea of, if I know who I am, and I know that I can be more than what folks tell me I am, and there are no parameters that guide the possibilities for who I can be, that process comes out of knowing that I have worth beyond what's been thrown at me. I love the way that you talk about ... I love the ways that you center knowledge itself as an element, and you say, "Let's deconstruct this thing and make that a part of teaching practice." I don't know. I just think it's a magical thing.
Edmund:
Ah. Thanks,, man. We have to because that's what teaching and learning should be.
Chris:
Mm-hmm.
Edmund:
Right? It's not about, "Oh man. I got an 85 on the test. I wanted a hundred." We throw all of the testing and those parameters out, and how do we get young people to feel whole, to feel connected, and to feel powerful in relationship to the content? Right? But also, how do we, as educators, draw a connection like, "Hey. Listen. We're in a science class. How do we use the science content to address social issues in our community?" "We're in a history class. How do we critique past issues, and what's the relationship to what's going on now in our society? What are the possibilities moving forward?" This work and knowledge of self is always about, what are we going to do, and how can we move forward, and the most effective way to liberate ourselves and to liberate other folks and other groups who are historically oppressed and pushed to the margins of society.
Chris:
And to think about the fact that Maxine Greene is hip-hop. Right?
Edmund:
She is.
Chris:
Because she's articulating an approach to pedagogy that hip-hop offers us a pathway to get to.
Edmund:
Yeah.
Chris:
You know what I mean?
Edmund:
When we talk about the imagination, hip-hop is the imagination. That's how it started. That's how it was birthed. It wasn't like, "Oh my God. Let's get together and have a meeting, and these are going to be the elements." There was no intention.
Chris:
Yeah. "Let's get together and dream of what could be possible."
Edmund:
Right, and it was individuals dreaming on their own and different groups dreaming and doing. So we didn't just stop at dreaming. Right? We did. We had the DJ. We engineered. We tinkered with things. Right? We made sense of things, because we knew that this is what we wanted to do. Because there was no other alternative. I think when we think about schools and education, that there's so much power in education that in some ways, there's no ... What's the other alternative where young people can really and truly liberate themselves.
Chris:
It's the hack.
Edmund:
Yeah.
Chris:
Hip-hop is the hack of a broken system, is tinkering towards releasing the imagination.
Edmund:
Yeah. Yeah. I truly believe that hip-hop will save us all.
Chris:
Part of the reason why folks may have some kind of weariness or discomfort around incorporating hip-hop, is that a function of the power of hip-hop? I think they know it. It's a function of their perceptions about hip-hop that are ultimately deficit perspectives on a culture. When we think about young people, part of the reason why we don't allow young folks to do what they ... that we know they can do or that they have the potential to do is because we have these deficit perspectives of young people.
Edmund:
Yeah. Yeah.
Chris:
In your work, you write a lot about deficit perspectives that exist and how to get past that. Talk to us a little bit about how you've written about a critical consciousness and awareness of the conditions that implant deficit perspectives on us and how you've known to get around that.
Edmund:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the unfortunate realities of our society is that when you're in schools, I've worked with teachers who have the best intentions, but often, they teach in a way that demonstrates deficit perspectives. So when we talk about rigor, right, or I'm like, "Listen, so all my kids can't do it," I'm like, "Have you offered them different opportunities, different access points, different types of assignments?" Right? You just give them ... We engaged with students in one way that's not effective, and the result is that the students are deficit, when we don't look at ourselves and the way that we're engaging might be deficit. Right? The teacher training program that we were in might have [inaudible 00:11:34]-
Chris:
Was deficit.
Edmund:
... might be deficit. Right?
Chris:
The pedagogical model is deficit.
Edmund:
Yeah. The schooling system might be deficit. Right? Oftentimes, we look at our students as like, "What's wrong with you?" I'm like, "Nah. The students, they're brilliant. They're genius. But has it been activated in your space?" Right? I think it's the same thing for hip-hop. Right? People look at hip-hop, "Wow. It's violent. It's misogynistic. Why do you want these things in our spaces?" I'm like, "No. Hip-hop is a reflection of what goes on in the world."
Chris:
In society.
Edmund:
Right?
Chris:
Because it's also creative, and it's also imaginative. It also requires nuance, and reading text, and yeah.
Edmund:
Yeah. We get to pick and ... It's important. I don't want us to pick and choose with the negative. I'm not trying to-
Chris:
Erase.
Edmund:
... erase the negative pieces of hip-hop. They're always going to be there, but also want us to look at the imaginative, the creative, the multimodal, the brilliant aspects of hip-hop, as well. Don't just knock this culture in this [inaudible 00:12:23].
Chris:
Then, understanding why what's problematic is there is a function of what you've constructed that it's mirroring.
Edmund:
Exactly.
Chris:
Folks hate-
Edmund:
Look at themselves?
Chris:
... to hold ... They hate the look in the mirror.
Edmund:
Yeah.
Chris:
Right?
Edmund:
That's so important about it. I think the hip-hop is just kind of like the mechanism, but there's so much work that we have to do as educators, as community members within our society if we truly want the outcomes that everybody talks about. Right? Otherwise, do we really want positive outcomes within our educational spaces if we're not critical of ourselves, if we're not critical of systems and structures, if we're not looking beyond these deficit perceptions and looking at like, "Okay. Cool. What can capture your imagination? How do you want to engage in this subject or in this content area? What's your connection to it, or how can we use it to change the world?"
Young people are so ... particularly young people who are coming up today in our society, where they get instant gratification from social media, our young people are, they're programmed a little different, and nothing's wrong with that. Also, it's not changing. Social media's not going anywhere. Right? We talk about marketing and all that. It's not going anywhere. Digital era is not going anywhere.
Chris:
It's recognizing that we're in this season
Edmund:
Yeah, and how do we connect with students who are in this space?
Chris:
Yeah, and I also want to make explicit, because I think that there are certain understandings that you and I hold and some other folks may hold that folks who may be watching or hearing us don't get. It's around this idea of, when we say capturing the imagination, we could say a concept has captured the imagination. Maxine Greene talks about this idea of releasing the imagination. When we talk about capturing the imagination, it's saying that the imagination has been taken, right, that society has robbed the ... So when we say hip-hop has captured the imagination, it has captured the imagination, but hip-hop is also a mechanism to release the imagination.
I think it's important for us to recognize this idea of capturing and releasing is important to understand what capturing is and what releasing is. To capture the imagination means it's gotten you, but we also want to be able to now release the imagination to do more beyond. I think hip-hop does both, and I think this work allows us to say, "This thing has captured. It can also release, and releasing it in a pursuit of learning, which, ultimately, is the goal."
Edmund:
That's it. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris:
Yeah. What is a final takeaway? What's a final word that you would give to those who are out there who are considering picking up the book or who are considering what to do next in their careers? What's like Dr. Adjapong's tips for those who are on the fence as it relates to the work or to teaching?
Edmund:
I think one of the biggest critiques I hear about this work is not only is just for the Black students or the students in the inner cities. This is for the Black teacher or the teacher who has an interest in hip-hop.
Chris:
Oof.
Edmund:
I hear that, and it might be more palatable for those folks. But my argument is this book is for anybody and everybody. Right? In this book, I have a whole chapter and section focused and dedicated to folks and educators to deeply interrogate themselves. Right? I argue that your teacher positionality is very important, whether engaging in hip-hop or not. Right?
Chris:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Edmund:
But particularly because we're engaging in hip-hop, how do we value and respect hip-hop and recognize that it's a Black culture and a Black art form. Because it's a Black culture and a Black art form, we have to understand our racial literacies and unpack and interrogate our racial literacies. Right? So we have that framing in there that was led by Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz, which is brilliant. We have positionality work in there. Who are you in reference, in relationship to your students, to your school context, to your classroom, to your school community? Right? What's your position? A lot of times, when I work in schools, I have teachers like, "I'm a Black teacher, and you can do it, too. You have to figure it out." I'm like, "Yeah. Yes. Similar, but you're-"
Chris:
But we're all different. Right?
Edmund:
We're all different.
Chris:
It goes beyond phenotype, and it goes to allegiance and respect for culture and cultural tools that can help you meet the student's needs.
Edmund:
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So the work is just like, listen, anybody can do this work. But the question is, how dedicated are you to really interrogating who you are to engage in this in the most effective and authentic way possible? Because that's where we can get stuck. Right? There are educators who engage in hip-hop who might feel uncomfortable engaging in the hip-hop pedagogy, and I can understand that. But once we do this work to interrogate ourselves, support our students, and understanding, getting a deep understanding of who our students are, that's part of the work of ... Number one, any educator should be doing that. Right? Then, we find the ways to bridge the gaps. Right?
Chris:
We don't stop at discomfort.
Edmund:
We don't stop at discomfort. We push through it.
Chris:
In fact, discomfort is the beginning, I always find. As a person who's like kind of ... I've known hip-hop culture. I feel like I've been a student of hip-hop culture, and I've sort enacted work in HipHopEd or hip-hop education. I think even reading the book, there were questions that it made me ask about my own practice, particularly around my tendency to essentialize what I grew up with. But it didn't make me feel bad for having that perspective.
Edmund:
Right.
Chris:
It gave me pause to think about that, and then it gave me things to think about and ways to evolve. I think that's probably the biggest offering.
Edmund:
Yeah.
Chris:
Yeah.
Edmund:
Yeah, and the intention is for this to be palatable. Right? I want folks to be able to connect with it. So I'm not in here bashing anybody or criticizing folks. There are multiple entry points for everybody to get-
Chris:
This is where you're better than me, because I'm like, "[inaudible 00:18:03] for all the people." Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Edmund:
But the work is really like, how do we get people to pick this up? Right?
Chris:
Yeah.
Edmund:
So on some level, I want to be like that. Right? I'm like, "Nah. This is not for everybody." But why can't it be for everybody?
Chris:
Yeah.
Edmund:
Right?
Chris:
It should be.
Edmund:
Particularly when I make the argument that hip-hop is for everybody.
Chris:
It is.
Edmund:
So anybody can pick up this text, and engage with it, and engage through a hip-hop pedagogy. I tell folks, "Also, if we remove hip-hop from, like we said earlier, take hip-hop away from all of this, the practices are good teaching. They're good teaching practices."
Chris:
Yeah. I love that. I love that. If I took hip-hop away, it would still enhance your pedagogy.
Edmund:
Right. Right.
Chris:
But it's important to put hip-hop in it, because we need to recognize that there are approaches to teaching and learning that we've necessarily ignored that can allow us to add more color and more tools to what we do as pedagogues.
Edmund:
Yeah. It's important to honor the culture in which this book was informed and this pedagogy was informed.
Chris:
Especially in the season where we've been asked to extract out culture and nuance from everything. I think giving you an example of how to do it in this realm with hip-hop gives you an opportunity to be able to do that with other aspects of our work that we need to sort of remarry to ourselves.
Edmund:
Facts.
Chris:
Fam, I dig the work. I'm so excited to be in conversation with you.
Edmund:
Thank you.
Chris:
I'm so much more excited that it sits within what I dream to be a set of books in this Don't Worry Just Teach series that are transgressive, not for the sake of being transgressive, but transgressive against normalcy and against expectation. It's against doing it the way it's always been done, but pushing the field and the work. There's no greater text to lead that effort than this one, and I'm thankful that we have it. You know what I mean?
Edmund:
Thanks, man. I'm excited for this to be in the world, and this is just another exemplar of what transformative pedagogy can look like. There's no reason we should be doing things the way that they've always been done when the way that things have always been done have not been effective. Right? We look at the deficits, and the numbers, and the numbers of success. They're not great. So what's stopping us from trying something different?
Chris:
Oof. It's a book that's about possibility.
Edmund:
Yeah. Endless possibilities.
Chris:
Yeah. Endless, infinite possibility.
Brett:
Our thanks to both Chris Emdin and Edmund Adjapong for their time today for both parts of this conversation. You can watch the video of this conversation over on the Heinemann YouTube channel, where you can subscribe to see all of our podcasts in video form. Also, be sure to check out a sample chapter of Teach Like an MC over at heinemann.com, and for even more content from Edmund, be sure to check out the Heinemann Instagram channel and his website as well as the Heinemann YouTube channel. Be sure to check out the new book, Teach Like an MC, available now on heinemann.com. Thanks for listening.
About the Author
Dr. Adjapong is Director of the Hip-Hop Culture, Equity, and Excellence Academy and an Associate Professor in the Educational Studies Department at Seton Hall University. A former middle school science teacher in New York City Public Schools, he is also the founding editor for the Journal of Hip-Hop Education and editor of the #HipHopEd Compilation Book Series. Edmund is a native of the Bronx, New York.
Dr. Emdin holds a Ph.D in Urban Education with a concentration in Mathematics, Science, and Technology; Masters degrees in both Natural Sciences and Education and Bachelors degrees in Physical Anthropology, Biology, and Chemistry.
He is the creator of the #HipHopEd social media movement, Science Genius BATTLES and Collider Classroom. He has been named one of the 27 people bridging divides in the United States by Time magazine and the Root 100 list of most influential African Americans.
He is the author of numerous award winning works including the award-winning, Urban Science Education for the Hip-hop Generation and the New York Times bestseller, For White Folks Who Teach In the Hood and the Rest of Ya’ll too. His latest books are Ratchetdemic: Reimagining Academic Excellence and STEM STEAM Make Dream.
Related Reading
he following is an adapted excerpt from Teach Like an MC by Edmund Adjapong.
