Today on the podcast, whole class novels and choice. How do we have it both ways; reading literature deeply and also fostering joyful, independent learning?

In Kate Robert's new book, A Novel Approach: Whole-Class Novels, Student Centered Teaching and Choice, Kate examines the troubles and triumphs of both whole-class novels and independent reading. She says we can find a student-centered, balanced approach to teaching reading.

As an English teacher, Kate has seen whole-class novels build community, but she’s also seen too many kids struggle to read them—and either abandon reading altogether or become the reader who’s been left behind. Kate’s had better success getting kids to actually enjoy reading when they choose their own books within a workshop model.
Many know Kate from her work with Teacher’s College Reading and Writing Project, but she’s been thinking about this topic since before then. For Kate, the idea started back when she observed the paradox her father, an english professor, struggled with in his teaching.

See below for a full transcript of our conversation. 

Brett: Well, you open the book talking about the paradox that you watched your father face as a teacher. Tell us a little bit more about that.

Kate Roberts: So my father was an English professor, and I grew up watching him teach, at least the first part of my childhood. I would go, and he would be standing in front of the lecture hall, and the kids would be sort of listening to him. And he was a gifted lecturer, and he was full of passion and performance, and I thought he was brilliant. But as I was growing up, I would increasingly hear him complain about his students and how they didn't read the assignments and they didn't come prepared. When they did read it, they weren't thinking very deeply about it. And the phrase that I heard my dad say a lot when I was growing up was, "These kids. These kids today,”, right?

Which I know is something for most of us as teachers. We have to fight against that impulse, right, to just say, "These kids," and instead look at our own practice. So one of the things that I came to see is that while my father was a very talented English professor and I think there are plenty of students who were lit on fire by him, right? Students who loved literature, who loved Yates already, right ... those students responded to him, but he wasn't a particularly effective literature professor to the students who weren't already on fire, right?

The irony or the paradox there for me is that my dad, I mean, along with my mom is one of the people who made me a reader. I was a very reluctant reader growing up. I just wanted to be playing. I wanted to play video games. I had no interest in books. I think my mom gave me The Incredible Journey 14 times before I actually maybe read it a little bit, but my dad is one of the people who made me a reader. And what he didn't do is he didn't lecture me about Yates or The Incredible Journey.

He read books with me. He read ... every year, we would sit down and read The Little Prince together. Every year, before we started the book, he looked me dead in the eye and he said, "Kiddo, this is the most important book you're ever going to read," and that was my introduction.

No lecture. Just that, and then we read it together. He bought me books that I wanted to read, so he bought me choose your own adventure books. When I got older, he bought me Sweet Valley High books, although I'm sure it just ate away at his heart and conscience to do so. It was like, "No." But he did it, man. He bought those books, as did my mother, right?

And that fed something inside of me that made me a reader. So this paradox, I think, is something that I found in my teaching, too, right, is that I want my dad the professor in me. I want that lecture. I want that voice. I want that love of literature, that knowledge of literature. He was so smart. He had so much to offer. But more than anything else, I want to be able to light a fire in my students to be readers.

Brett: So, really, you've been thinking about the whole class novel for quite some time. So why, then, is the whole class novel so controversial?

Kate Roberts: It's a funny and slightly nerdy thing to be controversial about, right? This is controversy-light, I think. I think that the whole class novel is controversial because when we see it in practice, when I know the way that I taught whole class novels when I first began teaching them ... I taught them in a way that, I have to say, turned my students off. I taught, say, Romeo and Juliet for 8 to 10 weeks where I was very much in control of almost every scene, every line, everything my kids were going to get out of it.

But I saw my job as a teacher of this text, this whole class text, where I had to get my kids to know this text really, really well. And I created lots of curriculum and assessments and activities to make sure that they digested and received the message of every scene of the play. What's controversial about that is that I know that so many of my students, when I was teaching with that methodology, didn't read the play, didn't like the play, certainly didn't feel motivated to go read another Shakespeare play after that.

That what a lot of my students did was become very compliant to my demands, and they jumped through the hoops I put out for them ... or they didn't and bucked and fought against every hoop, right?

And refused to jump through those hoops or sneaked their way around. But what I didn't create in my classroom was a community of readers when I was teaching a whole class novel in the sort of traditional ... or the way that I was taught. Honestly, the same way I didn't read the books very often when I was in high school and middle school. So it's controversial, I think, because we've learned a lot about building readers in our classrooms, and we know that that's probably not the best way to do it.

On the other hand, I became, in my teaching, a reading workshop teacher, which meant that, of course, I was helping kids to choose books that they wanted to read and that they could read with strength. I was teaching them skills and strategies to become a stronger reader, and that was sort of the core of my classroom. We had a read-aloud that we were working on together, but the purpose of the read-aloud wasn't really to learn that text. It was to love literature, to love books, and to practice some skills that they would bring into their own reading. And that became sort of my North Star.

I worked for a long time with the Readers and Writers Project. That philosophy, that structure ... it's in my bones. It's who I am. At the same time, I sometimes missed the powerful moments I had with whole class novels where my kids were all on the same book together. I missed the sense of being a community of readers every day, each day, on similar content, right?

I missed the conversations I heard my kids having outside of class when we were doing Romeo and Juliet in, maybe, more thoughtful ways. In seeking to bring back the whole class novel, maybe, sometimes, into the reader's workshop in some places or for some grades, it's a little bit controversial, because as a reading workshop person, my hackles go up where I'm like, "Don't kill kids' love of reading. What if they don't ..."

There's this fear that I'm going to ruin an ecosystem that I've developed, which is kids being in the center and their interests being prized almost above all else. But I think there's a balance to strike that's important.

Brett: And when thinking about that balance in this book, you've worked very hard to write something that brings everyone together. How does this book do that?

Kate Roberts: Well, I think one thing is that I seeing ... and this might be a little bit reductive. But I started seeing that there were almost two camps of educators out there. I mean, really, there were a million, but there were two sort of loud voices. One was sort of my side, the reader's workshop voices that were championing independent reading and skills-based instruction and student choice. And then, on the other side, it felt like, there were the sort of traditional whole class novel, text complexity, Common Core-y people that were saying, "Tough text, tough work, raise the standards."

And what struck me at first ... I just decided we were right and they were wrong, as you do as a human being, right? Well, obviously, I'm right in everything I do. But when I started reading a little more closely the voices, quote unquote, on the other side, I started realizing that, really, there are common places of work, like ... I read Doug Lemov's book with his co-authors, Reading Reconsidered, and I couldn't help but notice that a lot of the time, he was talking about methods that we use in reader's workshop, or that when he said that the text .... at some point, they name that if the text you're reading as a whole class novel's too hard, clearly, you're going to find texts that your kids can read, right? There's these places of joining up.

So it felt really important, because there's brilliant educators on every side of the spectrum and in the middle, and it feels like we can probably get better if we start to listen to each other a little more closely instead of just assuming that, because what someone is saying doesn't jive with how you've been raised up as an educator, it must be bad for kids.

These are all educators who are trying to do great things for kids, and I think we have a lot to learn from each other.

Brett: So that does sort of beg the question ... how, then, do we have it both ways, with reading literature deeply and also fostering joyful, independent learning?

Kate Roberts: On the one hand, I think you can't.

Okay. Podcast over. Bye, everybody. On the one hand, if you are really trying to read a dense text deeply with your entire class, then for some kids, there's going to be a pause on their joyful, independent reading, right? And if you're focusing on really stoking the fires of joyful, independent reading and that's the focus of your work, there might sometimes be a letting go of the meaning of the symbol on page 45, right? You're not going to be able to have both at exactly the same time.

But I do think there's a way to, over time, strike a balance. You can spend some time of your classwork on studying a text together deeply and certainly working within that time to make sure that all students are brought into the conversation and all students are honored in terms of the difficulty of the text. Then, your ... I, anyway, want to feel a sort of hunger. Once I'm in a dense text, by week 2, I want to feel an itch that needs to be scratched, which is, "Oh my gosh, my kids need to choose a book."

"They need to read something they really want to read. I'm going to lose them if I stay in this too much longer." And so I want to start to shift, then, into kids reading Book Club books or independent reading books that they're both able to read with strength, that ideally they want to read very much, and that they're reading in the company of peers. And so there's a kind of toggling back and forth that I think we can do of spending some time in a rich text that we're studying with a focus and then using that work to feed and to influence a student-chosen book that, hopefully, will bring kids a lot of joy.

Brett: You do write about how important the pacing is.

Kate Roberts: That's right.

Brett: And you mention the 2 week cycle there, but the pacing is very important.

Kate Roberts: I think it's very important. I mean, and I think we can debate. It is debatable how long certain chunks of this unit can be. I put a timeframe in there that is something that I reach for where I think that, after about 3 weeks in a novel, I think you're losing some kids in general. And there will be exceptions with longer books and books that the kids are just dying ... and they love reading, they love it so much. Every day, they come ready for more.

But I think that the pace of the whole class novel is one of the biggest detriments to it as a method of instruction, the way it's been done typically. I remember being in Ethan Frome in ninth grade in the winter in upstate New York for about 8 weeks, and by week five, I was dragging my feet to school. And granted, it was not just Ethan Frome.

It was also winter in upstate New York, but man, it didn't help that first period, I had to work my way through that book that, in all honestly, I wasn't really reading anyway.

And it wasn't speaking to me. It didn't feel relevant to me. I think if we had gone through it in 2 to 3 weeks with a focus of, "Here's what I want you to learn in this novel. Now, choose a book that's related in some way and let's practice that work." Even if Ethan Frome didn't light me on fire, it wouldn't have taken 8 weeks of my life and instruction to get through it. So pacing matters, that we move through the whole class text reasonably quickly and that, then, we have real time to be in a book that I'm choosing to read and want to read on my own.

Brett: Let's go back through that a little bit, because you write about, in the book, the importance of balancing, that balancing act of the student who just won't read the whole class book. But also, you've got the student on the other side who will absolutely find it a breeze, as you write. What do we do here?

Kate Roberts: Well, I think that's one of the things that reader's workshop can really offer a whole class novel-based instruction model, because in reader's workshop, what we know is that our lessons are going to be reasonably short and most of the class time is going to be spent with kids reading in front of us or writing about their reading in front of us or talking about their reading in front of us, that we bring that work into the classroom as opposed to classroom time is for me to lead the work, and then kids do the work of reading outside of class. We want to make sure that the kids are with us practicing reading so that I can coach them and work with them.

In reader's workshop, we confer with readers one on one, and we pool small groups of kids with similar needs. So if I'm reading a book all together ... if I'm reading The Hate You Give with my class and it's a whole class novel, I know that there's some kids that that book's going to be tough for. I want to make sure that I'm meeting with them to give them strategies for how to access that book on their own so they're not dependent on me, they're not dependent on Cliff Notes or their friends, but that they actually can do some work with that book. And for the kids for whom that's an easy read, I want to make sure I'm meeting with them, too, and being like, "Hey, I know we're studying character analysis, but I think you're ready to start thinking about craft, as well. So let me set you up with some enrichment work that can help deepen your read of that text."

Brett: In the book, you write about the anxiety that you face not teaching the struggle in a text during reader's workshop and that you thought it was a disservice. Can you kind of explain that a little further and just ... why you thought it was a disservice?

Kate Roberts: Again, I want to name that reader's workshop is my core. It's my family. It's what I believe in. It's who I am. So in no way am I wanting to suggest that it doesn't work, right, or that somehow, we want to move away from that model. I think it's the best model for reading instruction that I've encountered out there. I think that there are places for refinement inside of it, and one of those places, particularly as our students get older ... I don't know what age that is for you, listener. I know what age it was for me with my kids.

There was a certain point where I felt that, probably, more of our class time could be spent on teaching kids how to cope with a denser text than maybe they would choose on their own because they're going to be asked to read dense texts as they get older, and they're going to be asked to read dense texts that they don't choose on assessments, in other content areas in social studies and science sometimes. There's no way that social studies and science teachers can give kids texts they can read with strength all the time. So it felt like having a purposeful study of how to read a complex text was vital for the success of my students.

And while I believe strongly that giving students books they can read with strength is the meat and potatoes or the tofu and potatoes of our instruction, it is what I believe in as the foundation, I also need to teach my kids how to grapple with something that they look at and they're like, "Woof, that's rough," because if I don't, they're going to do what I do if I don't practice reading dense texts. They're going to skip it.

Brett: And that's a tool that we need later in life.

Kate Roberts: Absolutely.

Brett: I mean, when we go on into college and then when we graduate past college and we're in the workforce, we need to be able to read those critical texts that, maybe, I don't want to sit down and read in a report as an adult in my job.

Kate Roberts: And I think this speaks so much to the paradox the book is trying to address. Like, on the one hand, whole class novel teachers say, "That's exactly why I teach whole class novels," right?

"It's so that my kids read dense texts." The problem is, most of the high school teachers and middle school teachers who teach whole class novels that I work with will freely admit that they know that 75%, 50%, in some classes 90% of their kids aren't reading the books. They're waiting for the teacher to lead them through the content. They're faking their way through the book. There's a critical, I think, logical fallacy of the idea of, "I'm going to have all of my curriculum be whole class texts. It's tough, because kids need to know how to do tough text."

Because the fact is, when it's teacher-directed and it's a long time and all we're doing is whole class novels, we lose readers. They don't read anymore on the whole. On the other side, though-

Right? If I'm only giving kids books that they can read with strength that they're choosing, that they want to read, then I'm not developing that core skill. For me, I was in a whole class novel high school, right? But I went to college my freshman year. They gave me Ulysses, and I practically had a panic attack because I couldn't get through the first clause, let alone the first page of that tough text. So I think finding that balance and addressing that anxiety is important and difficult work.

Brett: And you do have great balance that you write about throughout the book. You call upon ... I mean, a lot of people know you from your work with Teachers College Reading and Writing Project, but you really call upon both the work you've done there and the work you did before you went to Teachers College, before you really knew about the world of reader's workshop.

Kate Roberts: Absolutely. I think a lot of reading workshop teachers ... my student experience wasn't reader's workshop, right?

Like, I was in a traditional high school. I was an English major in college. I went to Oxford to study literature, right? Like, my dad was an English professor.

I was immersed in this sort of English major mentality. While I have to say it was a real freedom to sort of release most of that in becoming a reader's workshop teacher and working for The Reading and Writing Project, I believe in the work. I believe that that work as a reader's workshop teacher ... I got more of my students to read, to really read, to become readers, to become more thoughtful readers, to improve as readers, than I did in my experience otherwise.

But at the same time, there's value, and I think ... in reading in a whole class text together. There's value in some of those more traditional methods of teaching. And I think most people agree with that, but I don't think there's been a voice for that idea, a yes and a mentality to the philosophies of reader's workshop.

Brett: So walk us through a little bit of how the book is laid out.

Kate Roberts: I start off with a quick overview of what the sort of structure of the unit could look like so that people could get a really flash concrete sense of what I'm saying we might do in our classrooms, and chapter one is a lot of discussion.

And I do that because I think that it's important to get it down, to say, "You know what? There are good and not so great parts of whole class novel teaching. Let's discuss them. There are good and not so great parts of reader's workshop, and let's discuss them. What could a balance look like?" I also think it's important to bring out what the debate is and sort of like you said, why is this controversial in the first place?

Just so that people can know where I'm coming from and agree or disagree with that sort of foundational philosophy that I'm coming into this book thinking about. Then, the following chapters take you through, step by step, how to rewrite, revise, reimagine a unit of study that balances both whole class and choice reading. And it does everything from ... the chapters are relatively short where we first talk about choosing a skills focus for you and your unit. Like, what is it that I really want to teach my kids to be better at, how to find strategies for those skills, how to choose a book in a way that might be a little more thoughtful than I know I chose books in my classroom sometimes-

What's in the book room, right? But maybe I can expand that a little bit to offer more voices, more identities into our whole class novel teaching. We talk about how to teach, so some methods of teaching that might be helpful, particularly if you haven't done reader's workshop before and you don't know sort of what those methodologies are. There's some clear guidance in the book there. And then, we talk about things like small group and conference work of how to help the different levels in your classroom, the different kids in your classroom.

And ultimately, how to bring all of that work into kids' independent reading. Like, how do ... if I'm going to spend three weeks in a book teaching a skill, how do I make sure that my kids practice that when they move into their choice reading so that choice reading still has some real academic grit to it? And then, there's some stuff about writing about reading and assessment and how to remodel your bathroom. I think there's a chapter in there. How to make the perfect soufflé ... There's everything. There's everything in there.

Brett: You do have the perfect soufflé in there. I did like that part.

Kate Roberts: The perfect soufflé chapter. That's a good one, right?

Brett: Yes.

Kate Roberts: It's a bonus.

Brett: You actually ... you have brilliant ... like, this is actually ... I'm going to really editorialize here. You've taken this topic that does have controversy. You've written into it in a way that is accessible, respects the common ground on both sides, but also, the part on cooking, though, is really helpful, because it really teaches you're not going to get it right the first time. Like a chef, you got to keep coming back. I really love that part.

Kate Roberts: That's right, and I think one of the things about thinking about reading instruction is, what is it, right? Is it a content area?

I don't believe that it is. I think there are things to learn. I do think that I'm not going to lie, my sort of traditional education gave me something. It gave me a privileged foundation, right, of like, "Oh, I know lots of Shakespeare plays and the Bible and some Chaucer." And there's lots of allusions that I can pick up on because I've read these books, but there's also always going to be information you don't know. So there are communities and allusions that I don't know because I didn't choose to read those books. So chasing the content of English literature or literature, world literature, feels deeply problematic, right?

Just like I may not know everything about cooking, but I can start to become a better cook.

Right? And I think reading can be the same way. It's a skills-based thing that we want to focus on, rather than ... here's all the books that you should read in this year.

KATE ROBERTS is a national literacy consultant, author, and popular keynote speaker. She taught reading and writing in Brooklyn, NY and worked as a literacy coach before joining the Teachers College Reading and Writing Project in 2005, where she worked as a Lead Staff Developer for 11 years. Kate is the co-author (with Christopher Lehman) of the popular Falling in Love with Close Reading, and of DIY Literacy (with Maggie Beattie Roberts), along with two Heinemann Unit of Study books on Literary Essay. Her work with students across the country has led to her belief that all kids can be insightful, academic thinkers when the work is demystified, broken down and made engaging. To this end, Kate has worked nationally and internationally to help teachers, schools, and districts develop and implement strong teaching practices and curriculum. Her blog, indent, is a touchstone for teachers and she uses social media, particularly Twitter (@teachkate), to help build community and solve problems among her educator peers. Visit Kate's website here.